sorry if it may be shocking for some people, but this shirt actualy really exist. please do not censor and respect cultures. If not, i will doubt your cisv spirit. DIFFERENCE OF CULTURE IN THE SAME COUNTRY: this shirt was made from french canadians to show english canadians the non-impact of the f-word in the nowadays quebec french canadian culture. In fact, in quebec-canada, a lot of kids use frequently the f-word without even being grounded by their parents. For french canadian this word has the same impact than "darn". The kids use that word in a way because of the geographycal minority of french speaking in north america. they are exposed all the time to medias that they get from USA and the other provinces of Canada, which are english speaking. Every years kids from other canadian chapters come to JB mini-camps in quebec, and are shocked by seeing kids of their age (11...) saying that word out loud and laughing while activities and energizers, and no adults react. Even for myself, as a leader, everytime i went to an international programs, i had to tell my delegates to be careful about that word abroad. The funny part about that shirt, is that it took a while for people to notice it. Because between CISVers we are too used to see that logo on the front of a shirt. It becomes invisible when it's only the simple logo with no chapter written under it. This year, I wore that shirt at the national leadership trainning. which was the same weekend than april fool (1rst of april, friday). I wore it all day long and just a few people noticed it. (actualy, when it's on someone's shoulders, it's less obvious than on an image file cropped fit to the logo, like the one on this site). thank you for considering my message. -Marc Anthony (CAN)
16 comments:
Marc. Fantastic shirt story. I must admit, that I was going to delete the shirt right away, because of cultural sensitivity and all that, but along with the story, I think it's a great contribution.
We had to speak up about the use of English swear words at my village- my kids were really bothered by it.
I have given my delegates the link to this site, so I would really appreciate it if the picture weren't shown on the main page.
As for censorship and respecting cultures, Marc, I don't think that printing a word that many people find offensive is a good way to illustrate cultural differences. If someone from CISV Saskatchewan made a CISV shirt with "FOURRER" or "MARDE/MERDE" in the logo to show French Canadians the non-impact of that word in English Canadian culture, would you respect their effort or feel that your culture had been disrespected?
Doubt my CISV spirit all you want, but deliberately shocking people with something they find offensive? I find that pretty hard to reconcile with the ideals of CISV.
~Toby (USA)
I think Toby has a valid point saying, that offending people is not necessarily a good way of raising awareness. I also don*t feel I*m a better CISVer by not censoring this shirt.
However, I have decided not to take this shirt away, because, I think whoever reads the comment underneath understands the intensions - whether he/she agrees or not.
Personally I*ve had the discussion about the F-word many times, and think it's one of the rare occasions where Westerners feel culturally offended. Being a German, I must admit that I was (slightly) offended by Toby*s post "German Hoodies über alles" - which is taken from the first line of our national anthem, which isn*t used anymore, because of the Nazi era. (we only sing the third verse these days). I don*t want to know how many Asian people are culturally offended in Villages every year. Most times, nobody complains.
Raising this awareness is reason enough for me to keep this shirt where it is, and it will move away from the front page as new shirts are posted within a couple of days.
Nick-
My apologies for offending you with the hoodie title. I was posting a whole bunch of them in a row and that was the bad pun that popped into mind.
I'd also like to say that I'm not personally offended by the word FUCK- it is, after all, just a word, and I do use it a bit more often than I should. It's not for my sake that I asked for the picture to be moved off the front page, it's for the sake of younger readers. I was honestly surprised at how bothered my delegates were at camp, and I took it very seriously then.
I guess part of me is still in my protective leader mode. Unfortunately, the rest of me is late for work!
~Toby (USA)
A quick addendum- there's also a significant difference between inadvertently offending someone (as I did with the hoodie post) and deliberately doing so.
~Toby (USA)
Toby, no worries, I just mentioned the German Hoodie to illustrate how easily people can be culturally offended.
I absolutely agree about the difference in offending intentionally and by accident.
"Education by shock" is a method that is used in a few areas inside CISV ("Peace-war-peace", simulation games in Seminar camps, etc.) and it's very controversial if that's the approach our organisation should be taking. Personally I think emotional learning is a very powerful method. Too powerful, sometimes, with a significant amount of collateral damage.
Have a good week!
It's a pretty interesting thing that something like a t-shirt could be turned into a catalyst for such an interesing discussion about language and sensitivity.
Look back at what Marc said about why he believes french-canadians use the word so freely-- because they are overwhelmed by the english language and its media in Canada. I think that there is a certain frustration that comes along with this for french canadians and I think that a t-shirt like this is an interesting way to make a statement and ignite dialogue about this issue within CISV. As an english-speaking Canadian CISVer I oten notice how little is done to accomodate the Francophone minorty within CISV Canada. Most anglophone Canadians speak at least some French, but at National events do we run activities in French? Rarely. I can't speak on the behalf of french-Canadian CISVers (I would be interested to hear Marc's opinion), but to me, part of what makes this t-shirt interesting and indrectly educational is it's context within CISV Canada and the fact that it's rooted in a certain frustration. I think "education by shock" could also be called using emotions as a tool for learning, and as long as the purpose of the shirt is not uniquely to shock, but to also exlore and idea, then it certainly reconciles with CISV's educational objectives.
I will add that I would not want to see a person wearing this shirt around on a day-to-day basis-- to me that would be the equivalent of neglecting to debrief an activity like Peace-War-Peace... Or just plain bad promotion of the organization. But in a camp setting, the wearing of the shirt over the course of a day could end in a debrief about language, powerful symbols, branding, sensitivity or other topics. The very fact that the shirt is offensive becomes and educational tool. Woah.
Let's leave it posted. Whether we like it or not, younger readers are already familiar with the word and with the comment underneath the picture, there's nothing superfulous or distasteful about having it there.
I was at the recent workshop where Marc wore the shirt and I'll admit that I didn't notice at all! Didn't even see it until I saw it posted! Too bad we didn't take the opportunity at the workshop, having anglophone and francophone CISVers together, to dicuss it.
Alex (Can)
Alex-
I agree with you about the value of the shirt in context. Education through shock has its place in CISV, and it is a powerful teaching tool.
BUT
I still think that the image shouldn't be on the front page of the site. So I'll be digging up some more shirts to post!
~Toby (USA)
From Marc (can)
Woaahh, last time I checked, there was no comments posted.
I didn’t know this site was related to international JB. (I feel a little bit shy knowing that now ! ahah) the comments created a good discussion, but I think maybe it should be move to a forum or someplace else, more specific for discussion then this friendly tshirt archive site, which is mainly for Archiving.
There is some really true things in what you say, everybody. Really really good things that I strongly approuve (for exemple, I agree with the difference between inadvertently and deliberately offending. And as Alex said I wish nobody would ever wear that shirt on a normal basis too. It happen once, and it was in an adult context, on april fool.). // So NICK, do whatever you want about keeping or deleting it. But I think the image should be deleted. Because It can be percieved as offending to the organism itself, by the fact that it’s the letters c-i-s-v that are replaced. Instead of simply having that word written in a context. And Also, judge by yourself the range of visitors your website welcomes, but it would be really bad if we learn someday that a group of persons did something offending to the organism, in a way influenced by that image, misinterpretation.
Bye,
Hope to join and continu that discussion on a cisv forum somewhere on the net,
Thank you,
Marc (can)
a few things i'd like to say...
1. I don't agree that the f-word is a "non-impact" word for a french speaking canadian... less impact perhaps, but non-impact... i disagree.
2. I think it's a bad reflection on the organization to have this shirt easily accessible for anyone to see. What kind of impression do you think someone not familiar with CISV will get if they see that shirt (assuming they don't read this discussion)? Probably not a very good one.
3. What benefit is there to keeping this picture up to kids who are 10,11,12 years old? You really think they are going to read and understand the reasoning behind the shirt? Some might, but i don't think most will.
just wanted to throw in my two cents.
justin (can)
Wohoo, what a discussion. However, I'm not convinced to remove the shirt...yet. Here's the most important points:
Pro Remove:
1) It is an offensive shirt, created with a purpose, other than a regular CISV shirt.
2) It's more for the discussion as for the nice design that it is there. Maybe a different location (discussion forum?) would be better.
3) Young kids may not read or understand the discussion.
4) Some people may feel offended, whether they read it or not.
Pro Stay:
1) It is a CISV shirt.
2) The thoughts and comments in the discussion underneath are very good, and bring us to the core of what CISV is about.
3) Some people always feel offended one way or another (see above for details).
4) Censoring the site would be a not-so-good approach.
5) Marc carries the responsibility for the shirt, and not the site itself or me.
For now, I'm leaving it there, most of all because, i can't think of a better place to put it. The only other discussion forum is in the CISV friends site, where I'm not sure I can place it.
More input is more than welcome.
The fantastic thing about the t-shirt is not really what it says, but so much discussion around it! I vote that it stays together with the commenting! :)
How is this shirt in keeping with the CISV spirit and cultural sensitivity? I seriously doubt Doris Allen would have been pleased to see this. Since when did offending people become part of CISV? Trying to use this shirt as a political statement (and that's exactly what it is)against the use of the English language in a primarily speaking French region is NOT appropriate! In CISV we strive to understand & respect different cultures not purposely strive to offend some people to bring about dialogue. There are better ways to achieve this. I've been to enough villages as a leader and staff member to know that you don't build community by offending. If someone chooses to walk around with swear words on their person let them, but don't attach it to CISV to give it some legitimacy.
Chris U.S.A.
Wow, I'm amazed by all that. I'm a French-canadian CISVer and I was at that training Marc is telling about. I would like to comment some stuff said.
It's true that the F-word, doesn't mean anything here. Actually, most people don't even know what it is, but they use it often as a swear. It's really interesting how here in Quebec, swears aren't related to anything bad. There are words that don't offend people if they are use in a certain context. For none english speakers it could be written CATS instead of the F-word and it would be the same thing to us.
Where should we draw the line? There is a word in French which mean seal that sounds exactly like the F-word. Should we not use it when english speakers are not around? It's just like the word ''root'' in Australia, I heard it may be offensive. So should we be becareful not to exchange a root t-shirt (Canadian brand) to an australian kid in a village? or to where it? I think that we should be careful, but not turn crazy about it.
On another point of view it is ok to do something that maybe offensive to other if they won't be in contact with it? I personally don't know, there is pros and cons. I think CISV is exactly for that purpose discuss things in a respectfull way. I think it should be kept, but you can put a notice or something like it.
welll......just the best!!!!
Even though some people casually use the word does NOT mean it's good to put it on a shirt. It shocks and insults others. If my non-CISVer friends saw it, their view of CISV would change. NOT in a good way.
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